Learning fruit tree grafting opens up so many possibilities for people who love to grow their own food. It just takes know-how and practice. Susan Poizner of Orchard People returns to the podcast to explain along with her co-author Steph Muma.
Susan is the director of Orchard People Fruit Tree Care Consulting and Education in Toronto and the founder of OrchardPeople.com, where she offers articles and courses on raising fruit trees. She also has an award-winning podcast, “Orchard People.” Steph co-owns Silver Creek Nursery, a fruit tree nursery in Wellesley, Ontario, that specializes in rare and heritage berries, vines, rootstock and scionwood cultivars as well as nut seedlings and more. Silver Creek Nursery has three one-acre test orchards with over 500 cultivars of food-bearing plants.
Susan Poizner of Orchard People and Steph Muma of Silver Creek Nursery, the co-authors of “Fruit Tree Grafting for Everyone: A DIY Guide to Creating Your Own Fruit Trees.” Photo Credit: OrchardPeople.com
Susan and Steph partnered on the book “Fruit Tree Grafting for Everyone: A DIY Guide to Creating Your Own Fruit Trees.” The book offers a results-oriented approach to mastering grafting techniques.
Steph started down the fruit tree nursery path, and growing food in general, when she was a teen. In 2009, her cousin Ken founded Silver Creek Nursery. She began to work for Ken seasonally and during breaks from school. In 2018, Ken decided he wanted to move on, and Steph took over Silver Creek and now runs it with her husband, Zack.
“The nursery is the main business, but the orchards and the experimentation are a big part of what makes me excited and happy and get up in the morning,” Steph says.
Steph began fruit tree grafting a year or two before taking over the operations.
Meanwhile, Susan has been engaged in fruit tree care education for going on 15 years.
“I’m teaching people how to prune fruit trees, how to choose fruit trees that will thrive in your unique location. That’s the biggest mistake people make, is they plant the wrong trees, and it’s a whole saga — and it doesn’t have to be that way.”
“It’s a totally interchangeable skill and worth having,” Steph says. “I think for anybody interested in growing fruit, you may as well know how to graft because it goes hand-in-hand and it’s so useful.”
Susan says though she has been working with fruit trees for many years, she shied away from the grafting.
“I thought grafting is just for fancy people, and I just really thought, ‘I’m never going to be able to do this,’” she says.
She thought you need to be really good with your hands, or don’t even try.
“I did go to a million different workshops to try to learn grafting,” she says. “I went with my husband. He would be out there doing the things with the knife, and I’d be shying away and saying, ‘I just can’t do this.’”
But then Susan met Steph. Susan already knew Steph’s cousin Ken as a customer of his nursery. When Steph took over the nursery as a young woman, Susan thought, “If she can do it, can’t I do it?”
Susan built up the courage to reach out to Steph to ask her to teach her fruit tree grafting and to perhaps make a course out of it. They did, in fact, put a course together, “Transform Your Garden with Fruit Tree Grafting.”
“It was a very amazing experience for me, I think for both of us, because it basically was my journey with Steph teaching me how to graft and me watching her do the different types of grafting,” Susan says. “We captured everything in video, and I had all the beginner’s questions.”
She says that the most important thing for her was to understand the science.
“We have a whole section all about the science of grafting to help make it intuitive, and then we go through five different techniques and teach you how to do that. The fun part of the course is, of course, also that we expect your participation. So in each section you have homework to do, and we expect to see photos of your experiments. And we also have the ‘Grafting Grotto.’ So people who buy the course now, even next year, they can go online and say, ‘OK, this is what happened to my grafts,’ and Steph or I will get back to you and say, ‘Wow, that looks good,’ and ‘this is how you could change it,’ and things like that. So it’s very much a community, and it takes you through step by step.”
Steph Muma demonstrates Scion cutting.
Photo Credit: OrchardPeople.com
What Is Grafting, and Why Do It?
People have been grafting fruit trees since ancient Roman times, Susan says.
They learned that if they enjoyed a fruit and wanted more of the same, they needed to propagate branches and not seeds, because when they grew from seeds, the results were unpredictable. Most of the seed-grown trees would produce fruit that is hard and not tasty. Only grafting can guarantee results.
Johnny Appleseed (1774-1845) famously planted apple seeds across America, but he planted apple seeds that produced cider apples — not the apples that taste good right off the tree.
“Grafting is propagating fruit trees,” Susan explains. “… cherry trees, apple trees, pear trees, apricot trees, are kind of like Franken-trees. “It’s not like you, you eat an apple and you take the seed and you plant the seed in the ground, and then you get a Macintosh apple or a Honeycrisp apple. It just doesn’t really work like that. Fruit trees are made out of two pieces. They’re Franken-trees. So the top part is the fruiting wood, and that determines what type of fruit that tree will produce. So it’s literally a clipping off of a tree that produces that kind of fruit.
“The bottom part is a compatible rootstock,” she continues. “It’s a totally different tree. And the grafter is like this magician who takes the bottom part, who takes the roots of some other tree, and puts it together with the top part.”
Grafters use a sharp knife and make certain cuts depending on the grafting technique being employed. “And you wrap it carefully,” she says. “You do it at the right time of year, and then you cross your fingers and wait. And over time, … if your cut is good, if you’ve matched up the two trees properly, you will magically have one tree. It turns into one tree that produces the exact kind of fruit that you want to grow.”
The rootstock does more than provide roots to a cutting that has none. It provides benefits such as disease resistance and earlier or later flowering time, and it controls how big a fruit tree will grow.
“We carefully choose a root stock to go with the top part of the tree — the fruiting wood — to have our perfectly customized tree,” Susan says.
The rootstock of an apple tree can be paired with branches from different apple varieties, so that one tree can produce multiple cultivars of apples.
When consumers lose interest in an apple variety, an orchardist may cut apple trees down to nearly their stumps and re-graft them with a variety that’s popular now.
“Sometimes you’ll see … the entire top of the orchard is all just chopped off,” Susan says. “That’s typically done in dormancy.”
In spring, new scions are grafted to those trees. This is called “top working.”
”It’s kind of crazy what you can do with grafting and the options you have and even the compatibility between different things,” Susan says.
For most fruit tree species, grafting can only be done with cultivars of the same species.
“Apple goes on apple, and pear goes on pear, but there are some that have variations, and there’s options yet to be discovered too,” Susan says. “For example, your Prunus species often has a lot of cross compatibility. So your plums and apricots can kind of mix and match on one tree.”
Planting the seed from a red delicious apple won’t yield another red delicious tree. That seed has two parent trees, and the DNA of their offspring won’t match a red delicious.
“Most fruit trees, most apples especially, are dioecious, and so they have the two different pollen sources,” Steph explains. “So that’s going to be the mix-up of the genetics of the seed that you plant from the apple.”
It’s the same concept with humans, she says. There needs to be a mother and father, and the child will be a genetic mix-up of the two.
The only way to grow new red delicious trees is through clonal propagation such as grafting.
Bark grafting an Asian pear.
Photo Credit: OrchardPeople.com
The Rootstock Controls the Size and Longevity of the Tree
A graft is between rootstock and scionwood.
“In the summer it’s called budwood, but it’s exactly the same part of the tree,” Steph says of scionwood.
The rootstock controls the size of the tree. So if you have a small backyard and don’t want a 25-foot foot apple tree, you can start with a rootstock that will yield a much smaller tree.
“The smaller, the more compact the tree, the shorter the lifespan it’s going to have, and it would also need to be staked permanently because the roots don’t anchor into the ground the same as the full size or own-root tree,” Steph says. “So that’s why a high-density orchard you might see commercially, it’ll all be staked and trellised, and each tree will be supported.”
Dwarf trees are the smallest size. Once grafted, there is a wait of 2-4 years for fruit production. After 20 years, a dwarf tree is spent.
“Every variety in combination is a little bit different so take that with a grain of salt,” Steph says.
A dwarf tree must be permanently staked and tops out at eight to ten feet.
Semi-dwarf is a medium sized tree. It takes five years to yield fruit and grows 12-15 feet tall. Semi-dwarf trees have about 50 years of good productivity.
Full-size apple trees grow 25 feet tall or taller, and they can take 10 years before they fruit. They can live for a hundred years-plus.
When planting a fruit tree, always ensure the graft is above the soil level. Otherwise, the stem may grow its own roots, bypassing the benefits of the rootstock.
Where To Get Rootstock and Scionwood for Grafting
Grafting a fruit tree yourself is cheaper than purchasing a grafted tree. When you buy a grafted tree, you avoid doing work that takes two growing seasons, and sometimes even longer.
If you are really frugal, you can grow apple rootstock from an apple seed, but if you do that, you will lose a lot of the guarantees of clonally propagated rootstock, such as disease resistance, desired dwarving and soil tolerance, Steph says.
She advises buying rootstock and scionwood from a nursery, though there are scion exchanges online you can check out. However, be careful, she says, because the pedigree of scionwood from a neighbor may not be what your neighbor thinks it is.
“Knowing that you’re getting quality material from quality trusted sources is very important because there’s a lot of discrepancies,” Steph says.
Apple Trees Welcome Grafting Readily
Susan started out grafting only apple trees.
“In the early years, it was apple trees because I find that they’re very forgiving, and they almost want to be grafted,” she says. “They just seem to want to take.”
Both times it was on an heirloom tree that had lost limbs. The first time, she grafted four or five branches onto the tree, and one was successful. Last year, she tried again, on a different tree, and half of her graft attempts works. Then this year, she grafted onto young rootstock, and two of the three were successful, while the jury is still out on the third.
Should You Start With New Rootstock or An Existing Tree?
People who are new to growing fruit trees and want to learn grafting will start out on fresh rootstock. Those who have existing fruit trees and want to rejuvenate them can have their introduction to grafting on a mature tree.
But not every mature tree is worth grafting.
If a semi-dwarf tree is 45 years old, it’s not a good candidate for grafting because the roots are already on their way out, Steph says.
Because a full-size tree can live a hundred years, grafting can seem like a good option. But if that tree is really sick — oozing with goop, cankers everywhere — don’t graft onto it. However, if a tree has a disease that starts at the branch tips, like fire blight, you can cut the branches back to the point where the disease hasn’t reached, and replace them with scionwood from a fire blight-resistant apple cultivar, Susan says.
And it’s important to realize that topwork on a whole tree is much more stressful to that tree than grafting one branch. Causing severe stress to an already stressed tree may not end well.
When to Cut Scionwood
If you wish to take scionwood from your own tree, the best time to take cuttings is in the winter, when the tree is dormant, with no fruit and no flowers.
“I bring my cuttings home and I actually dip the tips in hot wax to seal them up because we want to keep the moisture in,” Susan says. “We want to keep them dormant. What we don’t want to do is put them somewhere warm where the branches will die. So we wrap them up carefully, put a little bit of moisture with the cuttings, and then we put them in a fridge or in a cold space where there’s no fresh fruit. So a beer fridge is great because there’s no fresh fruit. The problem is if you store your cutting somewhere where there is fresh fruit, there’s ethylene gas that is exuded, and that can make your cuttings come out of dormancy and die.”
Scions secured to a trunk using grafting tape.
Photo Credit: OrchardPeople.com
When to Graft Fruit Trees
When spring comes, you can tell if trees are ready to receive a graft by testing whether the bark is slipping.
“There’s that perfect time when the sap is flowing and you want to get the maple syrup out of the maple trees,” Susan says. “It’s the same thing with any deciduous fruit tree. There’s a certain time of year when the sap is flowing and things are moving through the cambium layer, and that’s that living layer of tissue just under the bark. So when the sap is flowing and when that time is just perfect, if you make a cut in a branch, you’ll find that you can easily, with your sharp knife, pull away the flaps of the wood. It separates from the liquidy or somewhat more liquidy layer underneath, the living tissue underneath.”
Then, you can match that cambium layer with your scionwood. The cambium layer will act as the glue that holds the rootstock to the scionwood.
“If that time has not arrived, you’re going to be hacking away at the bark to try and expose that living tissue underneath, and you’ll just make wounds in the bark and nothing is going to connect,” Susan says.
In the late summer, the cambium layer becomes active again. This is your chance for bud grafting, or budding. Find a branch that has leaves on it, pull back the leaves, and look for a ripe bud. “The color will indicate if it’s ripe,” Susan explains. It will be more brown than green.
“You can slice that living bud, one single bud off one tree, and then you put it onto the other with a similar matching cut, and then you wrap them up with this wonderful grafting tape that isn’t expensive that seals it, it keeps the air out, it keeps the moisture in.”
Susan notes that the big difference between the two grafting seasons is that with spring grafting, you get to see your results right away.
“Within three weeks, you’ll know if that graft took or not,” she says. “If you do the summer grafting, oh my gosh, you may have to wait until the following growing season to know, did it even work? But it’s amazing to know that one little bud has everything it needs to produce an entire tree. If you graft that bud onto a rootstock, one tiny single bud can make a whole tree.”
There are other types of grafting and budding techniques, like chip budding, T budding, Z grafting, whip and tongue grafting, inlay bark grafting. Some techniques are used to overcome challenges, like smaller than ideal scionwood.
“What it really boils down to is you need to make sure that your cuts are always as flat and flush as possible, matching up perfectly,” Steph says. There should be cambium to cambium contact. “Because that green outer layer, that’s where the magic happens.”
Susan’s favorite grafting technique is bark grafting. It’s used on a slightly older, thicker branch, up to 2 inches thick on an existing tree. “With one little cut of my knife, I can check that the bark is slipping. I can pull back those flaps and make the perfect little envelope where I’m going to put my scion,” she says.
Susan also likes the frozen elbow cut. “If you do the frozen elbow cut together with bark graft, you can do anything,” she says.
The frozen elbow cut is a technique to safely achieve a smooth, long, flat cut. “You do that by pulling your elbows apart. You’re moving from your shoulders, and you’re sort of jutting your elbows out,” she says.
Grafting Tools
A grafting knife is a single-bevel blade. It is designed to bite into the wood easily and make a cut with a perfectly flat edge,
“When you’re handling a knife, it has to be sharp,” Susan says. “Sharp is safe.”
You’ll also need a hand pruner. Susan keeps rubbing alcohol and a clean rag on her when she is making grafting cuts, cleaning blades between cuts.
Steph also emphasizes the need to have something to label your scion sticks with.
“A stick is a stick is a stick, and it’s so easy to get confused if you’re not on it,” she says.
Take Your Time
“People seem to want to do things fast, especially this day and age,” Steph says. “And I think grafting, especially when you’re starting to learn, you’ve got to go slow and comfortable. Go at your own pace and practice. Keep practicing. I’ve done thousands and thousands of grafts at this point, but it starts way back with just the first one. And you’ve just got to take practice material, do 20 cuts. If you feel comfortable, then you can start on actually grafting.”
Be grounded. Stay calm and centered and focus on what you’re doing and think about all the steps. “Generally, when you cut yourself, it’s when you’re rushing, when you’re going too fast,” she says.
Steph demonstrates chip budding.
Photo Credit: OrchardPeople.com
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Susan Poizner and Steph Muma about fruit tree grafting. If you haven’t listened yet, you can do so now by scrolling to the top of the page and clicking the Play icon in the green bar under the page title.
Do you grow grafted fruit trees? Let us know in the comments below.
Links & Resources
Some product links in this guide are affiliate links. See full disclosure below.
Episode 096: Tips for Fruit Growing Success: Selection, Maintenance & Advice, with Dr. Lee Reich
Episode 138: Why Pruning Matters: Principles, Recommendations and Tips from the Pruner’s Bible
Episode 215: Roots Demystified: The Amazing Unseen Things Roots Do
Episode 246: Growing Figs Anywhere, Even in Cold Climates, with Lee Reich
Episode 344: Grow Fruit Trees Successfully
Episode 375: Apple Hunters Rediscover the Colorado Orange Apple
Episode 415: Fruit Tree Pruning: How to Cultivate Healthy Fruit Trees
joegardener Online Gardening Academy™: Popular courses on gardening fundamentals; managing pests, diseases & weeds; seed starting and more.
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Organic Vegetable Gardening: My new premium online course. The course is designed to be a comprehensive guide to starting, growing, nurturing and harvesting your favorite vegetables, no matter what you love to eat, no matter where you live, no matter your level of gardening experience.
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Master Seed Starting: Everything you need to know to start your own plants from seed — indoors and out.
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Beginning Gardener Fundamentals: Essential principles to know to create a thriving garden.
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Growing Epic Tomatoes: Learn how to grow epic tomatoes with Joe Lamp’l and Craig LeHoullier.
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Master Pests, Diseases & Weeds: Learn the proactive steps to take to manage pests, diseases and weeds for a more successful garden with a lot less frustration. Just $47 for lifetime access!
joegardener Online Gardening Academy Perfect Soil Recipe Master Class: Learn how to create the perfect soil environment for thriving plants.
Orchard People on Apple Podcasts
Orchard People Course: Transform Your Garden with Fruit Tree Grafting
“Fruit Tree Pruning: The Science and Art of Cultivating Healthy Fruit Trees” by Susan Poizner
“Fruit Tree Grafting for Everyone: A DIY Guide to Creating Your Own Fruit Trees” by Susan Poizner and Steph Muma
“Grow Fruit Trees Fast: A Beginner’s Guide to a Healthy Harvest in Record Time” by Susan Poizner
“Growing Urban Orchards: How to Care for Fruit Trees in the City and Beyond” by Susan Poizner
Dramm – Our podcast episode sponsor and Brand Partner of joegardener.com
Proven Winners ColorChoice – Our podcast episode sponsor and Brand Partner of joegardener.com
Milorganite® – Our podcast episode sponsor and Brand Partner of joegardener.com
Disclosure: Some product links in this guide are affiliate links, which means we get a commission if you make a purchase. However, none of the prices of these resources have been increased to compensate us, and compensation is not an influencing factor on their inclusion here. The selection of all items featured in this post and podcast was based solely on merit and in no way influenced by any affiliate or financial incentive, or contractual relationship. At the time of this writing, Joe Lamp’l has professional relationships with the following companies who may have products included in this post and podcast: Milorganite, Soil3, Territorial Seed Company, Proven Winners ColorChoice, and Dramm. These companies are either Brand Partners of joegardener.com and/or advertise on our website. However, we receive no additional compensation from the sales or promotion of their product through this guide. The inclusion of any products mentioned within this post is entirely independent and exclusive of any relationship.
